Jens Pulver Pre-PRIDE Interview
Mike Sloan Dec 31, 2004
When it comes to doing a one on one interview, Jens Pulver is usually the go-to guy
for candid answers, emotions and comedy. Pulver is stepping into
the PRIDE ring for the first time tonight to fight one of the
world’s best in Takanori
Gomi, in a fight which will be one of Shockwave’s featured
attractions.
A year or so ago, a Pulver-Gomi fight was thought to be ludicrous, a relative pipe dream. What, with how Pulver had been twice knocked out by the likes of Duane Ludwig and Jason Maxwell, as well as kick-starting a professional boxing career, Jens was all but written off. And when Gomi was submitted by BJ Penn, MMA pundits across the globe figured that Pulver-Gomi, a battle that was to etch its place in history as one of the best in the lightweight division some two years ago, would never come to fruition.
However, that was then and this is now. Pulver is back on the map
and ready to reinvigorate the 155-pound division, and is hoping to
spearhead the fight game by landing the eagerly-anticipated rematch
with Penn. But if you think Pulver is looking beyond Japan’s Gomi,
you’re wrong. It’d be preposterous to think such nonsense. Pulver
(who has been receiving prank phone calls on his cell phone lately)
and Gomi have wanted this fight for too long and both realize the
importance of this clash.
Alright, Jens, tell me about your cell phone. Who is calling you with these nasty threatening phone calls? Who is this guy?
Yeah, I figured it was someone like Gomi or BJ calling to threaten you.
Yeah, I don’t know who it is. It’s funny.
That’s funny. So what’ve you been up to lately? I haven’t talked to you in a while. Last time I talked to you, uh, you were a couple of fights since the Duane Ludwig fight.
Yeah, no I’ve just been training a lot. I’m actually sick of training. I’m done. No more. No more turtle fight -- I’m done.
Yeah. Now you’ve been ...
I’ve been running and slight grappling.
Nice. Now you’ve been doing professional boxing. You’re what 4-0 now?
Yeah. 4-0.
Have you been training in your grappling and mixed martial arts as long as you’re boxing, or did you focus solely on boxing while you were doing that? What was your training with that?
No, I just went to a boxing gym. I went to Alley Cat Boxing and started doing a lot of boxing at a boxing gym, and just focusing solely on boxing when I was boxing. And then, I still did my other practices during the day.
Alright, so there is no chance of you being rusty at all with your mixed martial arts skills?
Uh, no. Probably not. I mean I haven’t been … the only thing that hasn’t happened in two years is I haven’t been against a guy who's tried to shoot on me and take me down. So that’s going to be different, you know. That will offer up a little bit of fun.
So now you’re fighting Gomi, what are your thoughts on him?
Ah, he’s good, he’s solid. Solid wrestler, solid ground skills and he hits tough. He never stops, you know. That’s what I admire about him. He’s always a worker. Always trying to finish the fight, you know. So you definitely got to be in shape to just hit his pace and go with him.
Now what kind of weaknesses do you think he has that you’re going to exploit and expose?
Um, I don’t know if he necessarily has weaknesses per se, other than, you know, he’s just gonna try and out-wrestle me and I’m not gonna allow that to happen. If it does, okay there’s nothing I can do. I’ve wrestled all my life. If I get out-wrestled, I get out-wrestled, but that’s the way I look at it in a fight. If he’s just throwing things ... I just don’t want to do anything stupid. I don’t want to allow him to get away with BS, you know. If he’s going to beat me, he’s going to beat me fair. That’s just what I’m basically focusing on more than anything, is making him fight me on the same level, and not get away with any junk moves, so to speak, you know. So I wouldn’t say he’s got too many weaknesses, but I know what he wants to do. I definitely -- if I’m on, I mean -- I’m gonna stop that wrestling. If his gameplan is out-wrestling me, then let him try. I’m mean, I’m waiting for it.
Now when we spoke a couple years ago, this is roughly a month or so after you beat BJ, you told me that you wanted to fight Gomi. You were like, “He’s the only guy I want to fight.”
Yes.
Do you think the losses to Ludwig and Maxwell prevented the fight from happening for so long, or do you think it was something else? Why did it take so long to get this fight here with Gomi?
Um, oh, I think those losses, I think they did a lot to me. Um, you know I think it definitely made me have to go back and reinvent and prove to everybody that I was still a force to be reckoned with, that I still belonged up there at the top. You look back at that now and I guess everything that happened was for a reason and I somehow managed to turn it all into a blessing again. I don’t know how I manage to keep doing that, but you know, at the time, I think that’s exactly what happened. I took those two losses and it really put me down in the standings and it wasn’t something that people wanted to see. Now, in Japan, you know that’s exactly what people want to see. They want to see me and Gomi, so that’s what they’re gonna get. And if it’s always about the promoters, you know ... I could want to fight somebody until I’m blue in the face, but if the promoters don’t want to make it happen, then its not gonna happen.
True. That’s a good point. Now you beat BJ. It was a solid, competitive fight. BJ pretty much handled Gomi. It took him a while, but he got him. Now, have you watched his fight with Gomi and if you have, what have you learned from BJ’s style against Gomi, as opposed to how you could possibly fight him?
I learned, uh, the biggest thing, the main thing I learned, more than anything, was the fact that you can ... that he can be out-wrestled with strikes and things like that. I think if you go out, if you attack him, he can be (thrown off his game). I mean, Gomi, he likes to be the aggressor and if you allow him just to sit there, then, you know, and he changes things up. You can’t just sit back and wait for him. You know what I mean? You have to go after him. And that’s one thing that BJ did is he went after him and stayed after him, and that’s one thing I learned. In order to beat Gomi you gotta just go after him. And that’s what I’ve more or less took from that fight overall.
Have you ever met Gomi in person?
No, I’ve seen him one time when I fought and that was it.
I met him one time, a couple of times in one day, actually. He seemed like a good guy. He knows hardly any English, but he seems like a really nice guy. So I don’t know if he’s been saying anything about you at all. If his respect level for you is high or low, I have no idea. Have you heard anything negative about you from his mouth?
No, I haven’t heard anything negative. Actually I haven’t heard a thing. I just know the fight is set, I know I’m fighting him, that’s all that’s been said really to me. I don’t think he’s disrespecting me or my skills in anyway. I know I haven’t done that to him at all. It’s actually been fairly quiet. You know, overall it’s been real quiet. Yet, I’m allowing people on the keyboards to say what they want to say. You know, I’ll talk to the press, but you know there haven’t really been bad feelings. I don’t think the trash talking is there as far as, you know what I mean, there’s no bad blood of any nature in this one. I think it’s just going to be two good fighters who were supposed to meet two years ago, given the chance to finally meet up, you know? Two former champions at 155 coming back to meet each other.
Now with all the lack of bad blood and the lack of trash talk, do you think that’s a good thing for the fight or a bad thing?
I think it’s a good thing for the fight, because it’s … that’s what this is for. I mean this is what this is; this is just a fight. There’s no reason for bad blood or anything. I don’t need to just hate this guy because I’m fighting him. And this is one of those fights that prove that I don’t need to hate on somebody in order to fight them. I just want to go out there and fight him. There doesn’t need to be bad blood to go out there and punish somebody and do what I do and that’s the one thing I’ve turned around this time and you know, the way I fight. I don’t hate these people that I’m fighting, but I’m going to go out there and dish the absolute most amount of pain I can, ‘cause that’s the way you fight and that’s the way I fight, and that’s the way I think a fight should go.
Exactly. And when it’s all said and done you guys grab a beer together; it’s cool, you know?
Yup. Exactly.
God forbid you happen to lose to Gomi. Now I’m not saying you will and I haven’t made my predictions yet, but say you happen to lose, what would you do? Would you take time off from MMA? Would you go right back into it? What are your thoughts on that?
You know, if I lost, it happens. When you fight the best fighters, sometimes, you know, the gameplans just don’t work. You need to go back to the board and I’m in no way, shape or form going to lose. I can beat anybody on given day and that’s the way I look at it. You know, I am dealing with a gigantic size difference this time around and you know, that comes into play a little bit, no excuses at all. You know, if I get beat it’s just because that was his day. I don’t think at any moment that any one person is just that much better than me and can have there way with me. Again, if they beat me, they beat me, move on and keep on going.
Alright, now going back to your boxing career, how serious are you with boxing?
I love it. I mean I’ll make no secret about it. I love boxing. It’s the best way to work on my hands, you know. I’ve always felt the best way if you want to improve your striking, you can only do so much hit and miss, and do so much in a gym, you actually have to get out there and test it, and the best way to do it for me was to go out there and do it live. You know, put myself in that setting where you got a crowd and you’re going against somebody you don’t know, and the competition level’s high, you know, get that fight atmosphere going, and then, you know, ‘cause a lot of people they do real well in the gym, but you get them out in the ring and they freeze up. They don’t throw their combinations, they don’t throw their punches, whatever it may be. So I’ve always felt the best way to actually do it is to actually get out there live and basically put your skills to the test. Find out if you have any or not.
Now are you surprised that you’ve done so well so far? That you’re 4 -0 and you’ve already been on ESPN’s … was it Tuesday Night Fights or Friday Night Fights?
Both were on Tuesday Night Fights.
Were you surprised that so soon you were there, or is it because of your UFC, MMA background?
I felt overwhelmed just for the simple fact that I was like, ah great, you know, I got in there against a really tough opponent and I found myself all of a sudden like, “Here I am on ESPN and this is wonderful. I don’t know really what I’m gonna do here. …” That helped, you know, being on a TV show doing things like that. It helped me when ESPN came around, but if I’m just boxing these guys I’m expected to do well. I mean I’ve never been a slouch in the gym. Everybody I’ve sparred … I’ve always taken my boxing serious. I’ve always tried to go against other boxers and spar other boxers. So I was planning when I got into it I was going into it almost as a practice stance, or trying to get my MMA better. There’s no joking and I don’t want to bad, I want to win. So, it’s just a way of testing it. No, I’m not surprised by the way I’ve come after people that way, it’s just, you know, I’ve just done pretty well so far.
If the opportunity arises, if someone like a Top Rank, or a Goossen/Tutor, or a Golden Boy says ‘hey this kid's marketable, he’s got pretty good skills, we want to sign him to a contract,’ would you give up your MMA career to do professional boxing for good?
No I won’t give up my MMA career. If they ask me to, then that’s not the person I need to sign with.
Okay.
I mean that’s the way I look at it. They got to work hand in hand. ‘Cause I tell the MMA promoters the same thing, you know, keep in mind if I’m not fighting, I’m boxing. So I don’t keep it a secret. I want to do both, and that’s just how I want to do it and I’ll tell the boxing world the same thing, I want to do MMA, and MMA comes first right now. Down the road, later on, they start, somehow I get into the big, big money of boxing, obviously there’s more money in boxing, a lot more money in boxing, then there is in MMA. Then I guess I’ll consider it, but I don’t want to give up one or the other. I want to keep them both. They work well together for me.
Have you ever considered going into professional Muay Thai or kickboxing at all, or joining the K-1 Max?
No, that’s why I like the F-Cup so well, and I had such a good time doing the F-Cup was because it was almost like doing some Muay Thai; it’s like riding a bike with training wheels, that’s the way I always describe it, because you can still clench, you can do standing submissions. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Things like that, so if things got real bad I could always revert back to a wrestling style and, you know, get myself out of there. Where in the K-1 Max, things like that, you know, you’re in a world of trouble. You know, ‘cause you can’t clench, you can’t do the standing submissions, things like that, so it’s like, I’ve always been that way. It’s like riding a bike on training wheels; it’s a nice safe place. You know, if a kick still gives me problems, it’s not good for a boxer, you have to change your movements up all the way, you know, if I was gonna go into Muay Thai, man, I’d have to spend a lot of time. You know, I think that would take more time, working on Muay Thai, and I probably would have to give up the other two really to focus on the Muay Thai for a while, if you want to do well in the K-1 style of fighting. You know, ‘because kicks are just a huge problem.
Now the usual questions are gonna come up. What’s up with you and the possible return to the UFC?
I don’t think it’s ever gonna happen. People ask me that all the time.
Why do you say that?
I just don’t ever see them wanting it. I just don’t see them wanting to put the 155 pounders back in there, and putting me back in the 155-pound division. You know, they’ve had plenty of plenty of opportunities to bring me back if they wanted me, but you don’t ever see, you know, I never see them coming with a serious offer to bring me back, so, hey shit, I let it go a long time ago. I have a lot of teammates who do well in the UFC. I love and respect the UFC. I love the people who own and run it. I think they’ve done a great job. But I’m very happy where I’m at. I’m very content with the direction that I’m heading and you know, who knows what’ll happen in the future. I never write anything off, but I just don’t see them wanting to bring me back. I don’t see them wanting to build a 155-pound division.
Yeah, and the several times that I’ve ever interviewed Dana White, since you left the UFC, I always bring you up, and he’s always like, you know, “It’s possible. We’re working on things. I talk to Jens everyday. I don’t see why he won’t come back.” And he told me when you signed with Pancrase, he was like, “if Jens can get a couple of good wins in Pancrase, I don’t see why we can’t bring him back.” And then, the whole Josh Thompson-Yves Edwards title thing came into the picture. Then when I interviewed him again, he said, you know, “it’s really hard, because nobody wants to the 155 pounders, so it’s hard to build up the division.” My counter was that, “Well, if you don’t show the 155 fighters on T.V., how can people want to see them if nobody knows who they are?”
Yup, I mean who wants to see a Frank Mir and Wes Sims there? Phil Baroni and Lindland go at it four times? So, you know, its, they act like, ah, well, people don’t want to see the 155 pounders, or whatever. If you want to build them, you can build them.
Exactly.
It’s just they’re not doing it. They’re going a different road. You know, and the thing was it that they were competing with, I don’t know if they were competing with Pride and only trying to really build the heavier guys. You know, maybe they were, so be it, but it looks like Pride just took a different turn, because now I’m going to be the first 160 pounder to fight in Pride. In fact, I was the first 155 pounder to fight in the UFC, so somebody wanted us. You know, were not just side shows, and that’s what I’m there to help prove and I take, you know, I heard that same thing, go out there and get a couple of wins and you know, and make everything look well. But the thing was, the way I looked at it is, well, number one, either you believe I’m a winner in the beginning or you don’t. If a loss, if you got to boot me because of a loss, you know, and based on that loss I was trying to shoot the lights out, or I’m trying to make things exciting, you know, that’s what you should be looking at. Not whether or not I win or lose, you know. And, to have them go, you gotta get a couple of wins and we’ll think about bringing you back. It’s like really, am I that secondary? Do you really think I think that little of myself that I’m gonna sit around and pray to God that I’m going to win just so I can get back? That’s not what was going to happen. I was going to win, because I’m a competitor. And I’m going to fight because, you know, I compete, that’s what I do.
I agree.
Either you believe in that or you don’t. I can’t change your mind, but tell me I got bring in couple of wins. I can understand a ranking system, if you’re building one, but they were never building a 155-pound ranking system.
Exactly.
They’re not showcasing them. So there’s no real reason to go, so when I got into Shooto and was having a good time, you know, and those two big knockouts, and unbelievable fights, man. That’s hey, whatever, if that wasn’t good enough, then I don’t think anything ever will be. And that’s just, and so be it. There’s no hatred, no bad blood, that’s just how it is. That’s the game.
See for some reason, this goes a long with boxing too, people always want to see the heavyweights, but to me, I will take a welterweight, middleweight, lightweight, featherweight fight any day over a heavyweight fight. It doesn’t matter who's fighting. Maybe it’s because I’m only 165, so I’m a little skinny guy, but, I mean, the excitements in the lower weight classes. Like the whole Yves Edwards- Josh Thomson fight, great Yves against Hermes Franca, Franca against Josh. All those fights, you know, you and BJ as well, were all great fights. It doesn’t make sense. The crowd goes nuts, but then when you have a marketing scheme like Wes Sims. ...
The way I look at it, again, the way I see it too, is that’s the thing, when I’ve always believed it, when it’s a bad heavyweight match-up, it’s real bad. I mean, it’s terrible. But you can have a slow in fights in the welterweights or lightweights, and still it’s still pretty fast paced, it’s still pretty action packed. When you have a good hitter, I think it really doesn’t matter the weight class man, when you have good fight, you have a good fight period. But man, sometimes being a little guy myself, I’m always that way. Hey man, when those heavyweights, when you get some bad heavyweights, oh my God! It’s terrible. It’ll make you get up and leave the building. They’re sitting there slapping hittings and stuff I’ve never seen man. I mean, it’s gross. (laughter)
Like when Bruce Seldon fought, oh what the hell was his name, a couple months ago, it’s like what the … what is this? Or, any, pretty much any Holyfield and John Ruiz fight, what are you doing?
Exactly, you’ve seen John Ruiz, and he just runs around and hugs everybody like he just married them (laughter), and that’s the way it is. But then you see a Barrera and Morales, you get Kostya Tszyu, who's out there throwing just unbelievable powers, you see guys like that, you don’t see too many bad smaller guys fighting, because of their speed. The speed factor is always gonna be the Manny Pacquiao. You know what I mean? Arturo Gatti making the comeback, Ward, I mean just, it’s just the list goes on and on. But then you go ahead and you want to see classic heavyweight match-ups and it’s a lot smaller, it’s a lot smaller. You know, it’s times I think based on boxing times for the heavyweights are changing, because it’s starting to get sorry, and people are starting to see, man, bad match-ups, you don’t always get to a Michael Tyson go out there and one punch somebody. Yeah, they hit hard, and yeah, the threat of a knockout is there, but you know what? Here is more to it. You can’t base everything on just knockout power. What happens if his knockout power ain’t there that day? Then how ugly is it, you know what I mean?
Like if the opponent is smothering him all fight long …
Yeah, you can’t do anything. But with us little guys, even if it is a slow fight, it is still a chess game and we are still countering each other. Like Floyd Mayweather. He is as good as all can be. But he is so good, he can make a fight terrible! He is constantly evading and it’s like, “God! Just mix it up, please! Just for a minute!”
Back to you, though, Jens. I hate to jump ahead past Gomi, but you lost to Ludwig and beat BJ. Out of those two, who would you prefer to land as a rematch?
BJ. I’d fight BJ.
Over Duane, who beat you?
Yeah. Over Duane. It’s been proven once again that Duane can’t beat the top guys. Yeah, he got me. Merry Christmas early or Merry Christmas late, whatever. He beat me and that’s fine. I think I have proven that I was having a down game and I am/was a lot better than what I showed that night. Again, I got caught up in that whole revelation that I wanted to stand and strike with a really good striker. I think I needed that eye opener more than anybody did. I’m not really that hungry to beat people that beat me. I want to fight the best fighters and BJ has more than shown that he is one of the best fighters out there at any weight. As much as we run our mouths about each other, the bottom line is that he’s a good fighter. He really is. He is a big threat all the time and I would love to fight him again more than anything. I think that is what people want to see more and that is what I am after.
Now what are your thoughts on BJ personally? Do you really dislike him or is that mostly just hype?
I don’t really know him and there isn’t really much I can say about that guy. I don’t know him (personally) well enough to like or dislike him. I know we run our mouths about each other and in a fighting sense, even though I won, it was a big, unfinished fight for him. It’s an unfinished fight for me in that aspect. You know, I don’t hate the guy at all; I don’t really hate anybody. I hated Hallman at the time (laughs) and I can say that one. I hated that guy. When you go out of your way to run your mouth, it is retarded when you can’t back it up. But for BJ, on a personal level, I don’t hate him at all. But in the fight world, you know, that is my Muhammad Ali. I’ll be Joe Frazier, no problem. I won the first fight, he can come back and win the second, you know, that’s just what it is. It’s a great match-up between two guys who are very spirited, very competitive and want to fight again. We gotta dog each other a little bit and that’s what happens.
Were you surprised to see BJ get booted from the UFC in the manner that he did?
No, I wasn’t surprised because we all want to fight the best guys. In the UFC, sometimes they have a hard time because they don’t do enough shows a year. I understand because there are a lot of things behind it and they can only put so many fights on a year. In other shows, you get to see fighters fight each other and get (built up). You got to see fighters fight many times and with me and BJ, everybody got see us fight three or four times before we fought each other. So I can see BJ wanting to go to other places and fight the best guys out there. That is what he wanted to do and that’s what he did.
Last few questions, Jens, and then I’ll let you go. How badly does Tim Sylvia want to get his mitts on Frank Mir and is there animosity towards Mir from Tim?
Tim is not looking past Arlovski, I know that. But I know deep down that he wants that fight and of course he wants (the belt) back. He wants the belt back and he wants to get it back from Mir. I know he wants it. I know that every time he looks at the scar on his arm, the kid is hungry. He wants to get back in there so badly and prove to everyone that it won’t happen twice. He wants it really bad.
What about Miletich? Is he retired or will he every step into the cage for battle one last time?
I think Pat is happy right now with what he’s doing. He is training a lot of real good fighters and there is no real talk about him coming back into the ring. I think he has taken the next level. He is letting his name carry on through us and we have no problem bearing his name with us. But right now, I think he is done. I know there are a couple of dream fights that might pull him out of retirement and hopefully someday he can get them, but as far as being competitive and continuing to fight, I think he is done.
A year or so ago, a Pulver-Gomi fight was thought to be ludicrous, a relative pipe dream. What, with how Pulver had been twice knocked out by the likes of Duane Ludwig and Jason Maxwell, as well as kick-starting a professional boxing career, Jens was all but written off. And when Gomi was submitted by BJ Penn, MMA pundits across the globe figured that Pulver-Gomi, a battle that was to etch its place in history as one of the best in the lightweight division some two years ago, would never come to fruition.
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Alright, Jens, tell me about your cell phone. Who is calling you with these nasty threatening phone calls? Who is this guy?
I don’t know. It wasn’t accurate; it was
MMA-related, though. [Something like] he’s got to do me in the butt
like Michael Jackson and stuff; it was funny. I don’t know, I think
they ended it laughing, I’m not sure. It showed up private and they
didn’t call back. And then I dropped the phone in the toilet, so it
was all ... and AJ -- Adriana -- she got me a new phone, so I just
got a new line to go with it, too.
Yeah, I figured it was someone like Gomi or BJ calling to threaten you.
Yeah, I don’t know who it is. It’s funny.
That’s funny. So what’ve you been up to lately? I haven’t talked to you in a while. Last time I talked to you, uh, you were a couple of fights since the Duane Ludwig fight.
Yeah, no I’ve just been training a lot. I’m actually sick of training. I’m done. No more. No more turtle fight -- I’m done.
Yeah. Now you’ve been ...
I’ve been running and slight grappling.
Nice. Now you’ve been doing professional boxing. You’re what 4-0 now?
Yeah. 4-0.
Have you been training in your grappling and mixed martial arts as long as you’re boxing, or did you focus solely on boxing while you were doing that? What was your training with that?
No, I just went to a boxing gym. I went to Alley Cat Boxing and started doing a lot of boxing at a boxing gym, and just focusing solely on boxing when I was boxing. And then, I still did my other practices during the day.
Alright, so there is no chance of you being rusty at all with your mixed martial arts skills?
Uh, no. Probably not. I mean I haven’t been … the only thing that hasn’t happened in two years is I haven’t been against a guy who's tried to shoot on me and take me down. So that’s going to be different, you know. That will offer up a little bit of fun.
So now you’re fighting Gomi, what are your thoughts on him?
Ah, he’s good, he’s solid. Solid wrestler, solid ground skills and he hits tough. He never stops, you know. That’s what I admire about him. He’s always a worker. Always trying to finish the fight, you know. So you definitely got to be in shape to just hit his pace and go with him.
Now what kind of weaknesses do you think he has that you’re going to exploit and expose?
Um, I don’t know if he necessarily has weaknesses per se, other than, you know, he’s just gonna try and out-wrestle me and I’m not gonna allow that to happen. If it does, okay there’s nothing I can do. I’ve wrestled all my life. If I get out-wrestled, I get out-wrestled, but that’s the way I look at it in a fight. If he’s just throwing things ... I just don’t want to do anything stupid. I don’t want to allow him to get away with BS, you know. If he’s going to beat me, he’s going to beat me fair. That’s just what I’m basically focusing on more than anything, is making him fight me on the same level, and not get away with any junk moves, so to speak, you know. So I wouldn’t say he’s got too many weaknesses, but I know what he wants to do. I definitely -- if I’m on, I mean -- I’m gonna stop that wrestling. If his gameplan is out-wrestling me, then let him try. I’m mean, I’m waiting for it.
Now when we spoke a couple years ago, this is roughly a month or so after you beat BJ, you told me that you wanted to fight Gomi. You were like, “He’s the only guy I want to fight.”
Yes.
Do you think the losses to Ludwig and Maxwell prevented the fight from happening for so long, or do you think it was something else? Why did it take so long to get this fight here with Gomi?
Um, oh, I think those losses, I think they did a lot to me. Um, you know I think it definitely made me have to go back and reinvent and prove to everybody that I was still a force to be reckoned with, that I still belonged up there at the top. You look back at that now and I guess everything that happened was for a reason and I somehow managed to turn it all into a blessing again. I don’t know how I manage to keep doing that, but you know, at the time, I think that’s exactly what happened. I took those two losses and it really put me down in the standings and it wasn’t something that people wanted to see. Now, in Japan, you know that’s exactly what people want to see. They want to see me and Gomi, so that’s what they’re gonna get. And if it’s always about the promoters, you know ... I could want to fight somebody until I’m blue in the face, but if the promoters don’t want to make it happen, then its not gonna happen.
True. That’s a good point. Now you beat BJ. It was a solid, competitive fight. BJ pretty much handled Gomi. It took him a while, but he got him. Now, have you watched his fight with Gomi and if you have, what have you learned from BJ’s style against Gomi, as opposed to how you could possibly fight him?
I learned, uh, the biggest thing, the main thing I learned, more than anything, was the fact that you can ... that he can be out-wrestled with strikes and things like that. I think if you go out, if you attack him, he can be (thrown off his game). I mean, Gomi, he likes to be the aggressor and if you allow him just to sit there, then, you know, and he changes things up. You can’t just sit back and wait for him. You know what I mean? You have to go after him. And that’s one thing that BJ did is he went after him and stayed after him, and that’s one thing I learned. In order to beat Gomi you gotta just go after him. And that’s what I’ve more or less took from that fight overall.
Have you ever met Gomi in person?
No, I’ve seen him one time when I fought and that was it.
I met him one time, a couple of times in one day, actually. He seemed like a good guy. He knows hardly any English, but he seems like a really nice guy. So I don’t know if he’s been saying anything about you at all. If his respect level for you is high or low, I have no idea. Have you heard anything negative about you from his mouth?
No, I haven’t heard anything negative. Actually I haven’t heard a thing. I just know the fight is set, I know I’m fighting him, that’s all that’s been said really to me. I don’t think he’s disrespecting me or my skills in anyway. I know I haven’t done that to him at all. It’s actually been fairly quiet. You know, overall it’s been real quiet. Yet, I’m allowing people on the keyboards to say what they want to say. You know, I’ll talk to the press, but you know there haven’t really been bad feelings. I don’t think the trash talking is there as far as, you know what I mean, there’s no bad blood of any nature in this one. I think it’s just going to be two good fighters who were supposed to meet two years ago, given the chance to finally meet up, you know? Two former champions at 155 coming back to meet each other.
Now with all the lack of bad blood and the lack of trash talk, do you think that’s a good thing for the fight or a bad thing?
I think it’s a good thing for the fight, because it’s … that’s what this is for. I mean this is what this is; this is just a fight. There’s no reason for bad blood or anything. I don’t need to just hate this guy because I’m fighting him. And this is one of those fights that prove that I don’t need to hate on somebody in order to fight them. I just want to go out there and fight him. There doesn’t need to be bad blood to go out there and punish somebody and do what I do and that’s the one thing I’ve turned around this time and you know, the way I fight. I don’t hate these people that I’m fighting, but I’m going to go out there and dish the absolute most amount of pain I can, ‘cause that’s the way you fight and that’s the way I fight, and that’s the way I think a fight should go.
Exactly. And when it’s all said and done you guys grab a beer together; it’s cool, you know?
Yup. Exactly.
God forbid you happen to lose to Gomi. Now I’m not saying you will and I haven’t made my predictions yet, but say you happen to lose, what would you do? Would you take time off from MMA? Would you go right back into it? What are your thoughts on that?
You know, if I lost, it happens. When you fight the best fighters, sometimes, you know, the gameplans just don’t work. You need to go back to the board and I’m in no way, shape or form going to lose. I can beat anybody on given day and that’s the way I look at it. You know, I am dealing with a gigantic size difference this time around and you know, that comes into play a little bit, no excuses at all. You know, if I get beat it’s just because that was his day. I don’t think at any moment that any one person is just that much better than me and can have there way with me. Again, if they beat me, they beat me, move on and keep on going.
Alright, now going back to your boxing career, how serious are you with boxing?
I love it. I mean I’ll make no secret about it. I love boxing. It’s the best way to work on my hands, you know. I’ve always felt the best way if you want to improve your striking, you can only do so much hit and miss, and do so much in a gym, you actually have to get out there and test it, and the best way to do it for me was to go out there and do it live. You know, put myself in that setting where you got a crowd and you’re going against somebody you don’t know, and the competition level’s high, you know, get that fight atmosphere going, and then, you know, ‘cause a lot of people they do real well in the gym, but you get them out in the ring and they freeze up. They don’t throw their combinations, they don’t throw their punches, whatever it may be. So I’ve always felt the best way to actually do it is to actually get out there live and basically put your skills to the test. Find out if you have any or not.
Now are you surprised that you’ve done so well so far? That you’re 4 -0 and you’ve already been on ESPN’s … was it Tuesday Night Fights or Friday Night Fights?
Both were on Tuesday Night Fights.
Were you surprised that so soon you were there, or is it because of your UFC, MMA background?
I felt overwhelmed just for the simple fact that I was like, ah great, you know, I got in there against a really tough opponent and I found myself all of a sudden like, “Here I am on ESPN and this is wonderful. I don’t know really what I’m gonna do here. …” That helped, you know, being on a TV show doing things like that. It helped me when ESPN came around, but if I’m just boxing these guys I’m expected to do well. I mean I’ve never been a slouch in the gym. Everybody I’ve sparred … I’ve always taken my boxing serious. I’ve always tried to go against other boxers and spar other boxers. So I was planning when I got into it I was going into it almost as a practice stance, or trying to get my MMA better. There’s no joking and I don’t want to bad, I want to win. So, it’s just a way of testing it. No, I’m not surprised by the way I’ve come after people that way, it’s just, you know, I’ve just done pretty well so far.
If the opportunity arises, if someone like a Top Rank, or a Goossen/Tutor, or a Golden Boy says ‘hey this kid's marketable, he’s got pretty good skills, we want to sign him to a contract,’ would you give up your MMA career to do professional boxing for good?
No I won’t give up my MMA career. If they ask me to, then that’s not the person I need to sign with.
Okay.
I mean that’s the way I look at it. They got to work hand in hand. ‘Cause I tell the MMA promoters the same thing, you know, keep in mind if I’m not fighting, I’m boxing. So I don’t keep it a secret. I want to do both, and that’s just how I want to do it and I’ll tell the boxing world the same thing, I want to do MMA, and MMA comes first right now. Down the road, later on, they start, somehow I get into the big, big money of boxing, obviously there’s more money in boxing, a lot more money in boxing, then there is in MMA. Then I guess I’ll consider it, but I don’t want to give up one or the other. I want to keep them both. They work well together for me.
Have you ever considered going into professional Muay Thai or kickboxing at all, or joining the K-1 Max?
No, that’s why I like the F-Cup so well, and I had such a good time doing the F-Cup was because it was almost like doing some Muay Thai; it’s like riding a bike with training wheels, that’s the way I always describe it, because you can still clench, you can do standing submissions. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Things like that, so if things got real bad I could always revert back to a wrestling style and, you know, get myself out of there. Where in the K-1 Max, things like that, you know, you’re in a world of trouble. You know, ‘cause you can’t clench, you can’t do the standing submissions, things like that, so it’s like, I’ve always been that way. It’s like riding a bike on training wheels; it’s a nice safe place. You know, if a kick still gives me problems, it’s not good for a boxer, you have to change your movements up all the way, you know, if I was gonna go into Muay Thai, man, I’d have to spend a lot of time. You know, I think that would take more time, working on Muay Thai, and I probably would have to give up the other two really to focus on the Muay Thai for a while, if you want to do well in the K-1 style of fighting. You know, ‘because kicks are just a huge problem.
Now the usual questions are gonna come up. What’s up with you and the possible return to the UFC?
I don’t think it’s ever gonna happen. People ask me that all the time.
Why do you say that?
I just don’t ever see them wanting it. I just don’t see them wanting to put the 155 pounders back in there, and putting me back in the 155-pound division. You know, they’ve had plenty of plenty of opportunities to bring me back if they wanted me, but you don’t ever see, you know, I never see them coming with a serious offer to bring me back, so, hey shit, I let it go a long time ago. I have a lot of teammates who do well in the UFC. I love and respect the UFC. I love the people who own and run it. I think they’ve done a great job. But I’m very happy where I’m at. I’m very content with the direction that I’m heading and you know, who knows what’ll happen in the future. I never write anything off, but I just don’t see them wanting to bring me back. I don’t see them wanting to build a 155-pound division.
Yeah, and the several times that I’ve ever interviewed Dana White, since you left the UFC, I always bring you up, and he’s always like, you know, “It’s possible. We’re working on things. I talk to Jens everyday. I don’t see why he won’t come back.” And he told me when you signed with Pancrase, he was like, “if Jens can get a couple of good wins in Pancrase, I don’t see why we can’t bring him back.” And then, the whole Josh Thompson-Yves Edwards title thing came into the picture. Then when I interviewed him again, he said, you know, “it’s really hard, because nobody wants to the 155 pounders, so it’s hard to build up the division.” My counter was that, “Well, if you don’t show the 155 fighters on T.V., how can people want to see them if nobody knows who they are?”
Yup, I mean who wants to see a Frank Mir and Wes Sims there? Phil Baroni and Lindland go at it four times? So, you know, its, they act like, ah, well, people don’t want to see the 155 pounders, or whatever. If you want to build them, you can build them.
Exactly.
It’s just they’re not doing it. They’re going a different road. You know, and the thing was it that they were competing with, I don’t know if they were competing with Pride and only trying to really build the heavier guys. You know, maybe they were, so be it, but it looks like Pride just took a different turn, because now I’m going to be the first 160 pounder to fight in Pride. In fact, I was the first 155 pounder to fight in the UFC, so somebody wanted us. You know, were not just side shows, and that’s what I’m there to help prove and I take, you know, I heard that same thing, go out there and get a couple of wins and you know, and make everything look well. But the thing was, the way I looked at it is, well, number one, either you believe I’m a winner in the beginning or you don’t. If a loss, if you got to boot me because of a loss, you know, and based on that loss I was trying to shoot the lights out, or I’m trying to make things exciting, you know, that’s what you should be looking at. Not whether or not I win or lose, you know. And, to have them go, you gotta get a couple of wins and we’ll think about bringing you back. It’s like really, am I that secondary? Do you really think I think that little of myself that I’m gonna sit around and pray to God that I’m going to win just so I can get back? That’s not what was going to happen. I was going to win, because I’m a competitor. And I’m going to fight because, you know, I compete, that’s what I do.
I agree.
Either you believe in that or you don’t. I can’t change your mind, but tell me I got bring in couple of wins. I can understand a ranking system, if you’re building one, but they were never building a 155-pound ranking system.
Exactly.
They’re not showcasing them. So there’s no real reason to go, so when I got into Shooto and was having a good time, you know, and those two big knockouts, and unbelievable fights, man. That’s hey, whatever, if that wasn’t good enough, then I don’t think anything ever will be. And that’s just, and so be it. There’s no hatred, no bad blood, that’s just how it is. That’s the game.
See for some reason, this goes a long with boxing too, people always want to see the heavyweights, but to me, I will take a welterweight, middleweight, lightweight, featherweight fight any day over a heavyweight fight. It doesn’t matter who's fighting. Maybe it’s because I’m only 165, so I’m a little skinny guy, but, I mean, the excitements in the lower weight classes. Like the whole Yves Edwards- Josh Thomson fight, great Yves against Hermes Franca, Franca against Josh. All those fights, you know, you and BJ as well, were all great fights. It doesn’t make sense. The crowd goes nuts, but then when you have a marketing scheme like Wes Sims. ...
The way I look at it, again, the way I see it too, is that’s the thing, when I’ve always believed it, when it’s a bad heavyweight match-up, it’s real bad. I mean, it’s terrible. But you can have a slow in fights in the welterweights or lightweights, and still it’s still pretty fast paced, it’s still pretty action packed. When you have a good hitter, I think it really doesn’t matter the weight class man, when you have good fight, you have a good fight period. But man, sometimes being a little guy myself, I’m always that way. Hey man, when those heavyweights, when you get some bad heavyweights, oh my God! It’s terrible. It’ll make you get up and leave the building. They’re sitting there slapping hittings and stuff I’ve never seen man. I mean, it’s gross. (laughter)
Like when Bruce Seldon fought, oh what the hell was his name, a couple months ago, it’s like what the … what is this? Or, any, pretty much any Holyfield and John Ruiz fight, what are you doing?
Exactly, you’ve seen John Ruiz, and he just runs around and hugs everybody like he just married them (laughter), and that’s the way it is. But then you see a Barrera and Morales, you get Kostya Tszyu, who's out there throwing just unbelievable powers, you see guys like that, you don’t see too many bad smaller guys fighting, because of their speed. The speed factor is always gonna be the Manny Pacquiao. You know what I mean? Arturo Gatti making the comeback, Ward, I mean just, it’s just the list goes on and on. But then you go ahead and you want to see classic heavyweight match-ups and it’s a lot smaller, it’s a lot smaller. You know, it’s times I think based on boxing times for the heavyweights are changing, because it’s starting to get sorry, and people are starting to see, man, bad match-ups, you don’t always get to a Michael Tyson go out there and one punch somebody. Yeah, they hit hard, and yeah, the threat of a knockout is there, but you know what? Here is more to it. You can’t base everything on just knockout power. What happens if his knockout power ain’t there that day? Then how ugly is it, you know what I mean?
Like if the opponent is smothering him all fight long …
Yeah, you can’t do anything. But with us little guys, even if it is a slow fight, it is still a chess game and we are still countering each other. Like Floyd Mayweather. He is as good as all can be. But he is so good, he can make a fight terrible! He is constantly evading and it’s like, “God! Just mix it up, please! Just for a minute!”
Back to you, though, Jens. I hate to jump ahead past Gomi, but you lost to Ludwig and beat BJ. Out of those two, who would you prefer to land as a rematch?
BJ. I’d fight BJ.
Over Duane, who beat you?
Yeah. Over Duane. It’s been proven once again that Duane can’t beat the top guys. Yeah, he got me. Merry Christmas early or Merry Christmas late, whatever. He beat me and that’s fine. I think I have proven that I was having a down game and I am/was a lot better than what I showed that night. Again, I got caught up in that whole revelation that I wanted to stand and strike with a really good striker. I think I needed that eye opener more than anybody did. I’m not really that hungry to beat people that beat me. I want to fight the best fighters and BJ has more than shown that he is one of the best fighters out there at any weight. As much as we run our mouths about each other, the bottom line is that he’s a good fighter. He really is. He is a big threat all the time and I would love to fight him again more than anything. I think that is what people want to see more and that is what I am after.
Now what are your thoughts on BJ personally? Do you really dislike him or is that mostly just hype?
I don’t really know him and there isn’t really much I can say about that guy. I don’t know him (personally) well enough to like or dislike him. I know we run our mouths about each other and in a fighting sense, even though I won, it was a big, unfinished fight for him. It’s an unfinished fight for me in that aspect. You know, I don’t hate the guy at all; I don’t really hate anybody. I hated Hallman at the time (laughs) and I can say that one. I hated that guy. When you go out of your way to run your mouth, it is retarded when you can’t back it up. But for BJ, on a personal level, I don’t hate him at all. But in the fight world, you know, that is my Muhammad Ali. I’ll be Joe Frazier, no problem. I won the first fight, he can come back and win the second, you know, that’s just what it is. It’s a great match-up between two guys who are very spirited, very competitive and want to fight again. We gotta dog each other a little bit and that’s what happens.
Were you surprised to see BJ get booted from the UFC in the manner that he did?
No, I wasn’t surprised because we all want to fight the best guys. In the UFC, sometimes they have a hard time because they don’t do enough shows a year. I understand because there are a lot of things behind it and they can only put so many fights on a year. In other shows, you get to see fighters fight each other and get (built up). You got to see fighters fight many times and with me and BJ, everybody got see us fight three or four times before we fought each other. So I can see BJ wanting to go to other places and fight the best guys out there. That is what he wanted to do and that’s what he did.
Last few questions, Jens, and then I’ll let you go. How badly does Tim Sylvia want to get his mitts on Frank Mir and is there animosity towards Mir from Tim?
Tim is not looking past Arlovski, I know that. But I know deep down that he wants that fight and of course he wants (the belt) back. He wants the belt back and he wants to get it back from Mir. I know he wants it. I know that every time he looks at the scar on his arm, the kid is hungry. He wants to get back in there so badly and prove to everyone that it won’t happen twice. He wants it really bad.
What about Miletich? Is he retired or will he every step into the cage for battle one last time?
I think Pat is happy right now with what he’s doing. He is training a lot of real good fighters and there is no real talk about him coming back into the ring. I think he has taken the next level. He is letting his name carry on through us and we have no problem bearing his name with us. But right now, I think he is done. I know there are a couple of dream fights that might pull him out of retirement and hopefully someday he can get them, but as far as being competitive and continuing to fight, I think he is done.
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