J.G.’s “It’s Sherdog.com Not Sherdog.net” Mailbag
“Dirty” Reaction
Josh Gross Apr 4, 2006
“Dirty” Reaction to the P4P Dozen It's ridiculous to have
a pound for pound list without Ivan Menjivar (Pictures) in the top six, let alone not
even mentioned in the fighters to watch. Franklin and Liddell
overtaking Silva? I think that is just a lil bit of the Sherdog
American bias showing. Franklin's record and Liddell's record pale
in comparison to wand's and to leave Ivan off the list is an insult
to THE GUY pound for Pound is meant to showcase. — J.O.
American bias? You can nitpick about a bunch of things on my list, but “American bias” is a tough one to argue. What part of the world do the top two fighters on my list live? And for whom do they fight?
Wand was in my top five before losing to Arona. And his win on New
Year’s Eve was hardly dominating stuff. I might have projected on
Franklin, but I believe in his skills and his staying power. The
guy is a monster in his division. Eventually I believe he’ll move
to 205 and be just as good there.
There’s been some discussion about what “pound for pound” means. The way I define it, it’s a combination of how a fighter performs in his or her division (showing how dominant they are) and overall skills. Difficult to argue against Liddell’s accomplishments and Franklin’s overall skill. But you can try.
I’m a regular listener to the Beatdown radio show and I know you know your stuff, but this list is just a bit too flawed for me to be quiet about it. Namely, Chuck Liddell (Pictures) at #5. How is this possible?
You mention the hyped Chuck vs. Randy III fight; did you actually buy into that hype? The fight itself showcased almost nothing of what MMA is really about. It was a joke. Chuck is a walking statue waiting to defend the takedown and throw a few punches. Chuck is not MMA. You can argue all day about who would beat who when it comes to Shogun and Chuck, but when it comes to their skills, there is no contest. You know this, yet you put Chuck at #5.
What makes this a bit laughable is that you also mention that Chuck is injured and will be out for several months. Is that really something unusual? The guy fights twice a year. He is always out for six months, injuries or not. Why do you mention his injury to imply that he is normally an active fighter? Something we both know he is not. In fact, considering him to be semi-retired at this point would not be a stretch. It gets even more ludicrous when you mention that "in February he knocked out couture," as if he is really active. Perhaps you should also mention that before he KO’d Couture again (which really means nothing) he had three fights in 1.5 years. While he won all of them, the extremely few fights make this quite unimpressive.
Something always overlooked when it comes to Chuck is how often he fights. It’s very easy to look at his win/loss ratio and conclude that he must be one of the best. Especially when you compare this to some top PRIDE fighters, who fight each other more often, and loses. The point here is that Chuck doesn’t fight, so he doesn’t lose. Furthermore, Chuck does not become a better fighter simply because the other top fighters lose to each other. So the question is, what is the real reason for putting Chuck at #5? Don’t tell me its because "he’s the champ." Every fighter in the UFC is always only one fight away from the title, except those who just lost of course. A title means nothing when all you need is one lucky shot and it’s yours.
Btw, Shogun is 12-2, not 12-3. — CHR
Liddell is a monster. His right hand is quickly becoming a thing of legend. And he’s beaten nothing but quality fighters. Guess I’m saying it doesn’t matter how often he fights as long as he keeps stopping quality competitors.
Skill is nice. Winning is nicer. And all Chuck does is win.
Oh, and thanks for a heads up on Shogun’s record. I messed that up.
Defining P4P Gross Style
While making that list you seem to have forgotten one thing: what p4p actually is. Skill relating to their weight... Ok so the top three isn’t bad, but putting Kid in at #12 makes the list lose all credibility. And no B.J. Penn (Pictures)? — Romal Sarwar
Sorry to burst your bubble, but weight isn’t a consideration. (My No. 1 guy is a heavyweight.) Know what is? Two things: 1) the way a fighter handles his peers and 2) the skill he displays in doing so.
Kid’s a great fighter and made the list on the strength of what he brings into competition. But looking at his opponents. Who stands out? A slowing Uno? The aged Royler Gracie (Pictures), who holds just one victory against a fighter in the black?
Defeating Genki Sudo (Pictures) helped get Kid on the list.
About Penn, he hasn’t defeated a Top 10 fighter in over two years. That’s gotta knock him off the list.
“Dozen” Missing the Baby Face Assassin
Where was Barnett? I gotta tell ya, I’m no Barnett nut-hugger. I didn’t like the guy when he was younger and I have a problem with some of his antics. But to not even give him an honorable mention when he has held two prestigious belts in MMA is kinda crazy. He beat a smaller but formidable Nakamura and did very well against a great striker in Mirko Filipovic (Pictures). He is one of the favorites to win the OWGP for sure when one weighs all the options. He can out-wrestle everyone, save Big Nog. With Big Nog if he can hold on when facing the ground game he can use GnP and he's no slouch with subs himself. If he continues to improve his cardio and striking, he can take the belt for sure. I say write up a column and give him a late mention. Thanx for your time — Shalabi
Hey, if he hadn’t gotten popped for steroids I still think Barnett would be UFC heavyweight champion (assuming he could have come to terms with Zuffa). Since leaving the UFC Josh hasn’t beaten a heavyweight of note. I always felt Barnett could be very good; he just needed to decide what he wanted. Glad to see him active these days. He’s not quite DD level, but with a few more wins and some time in the gym that could easily change.
American bias? You can nitpick about a bunch of things on my list, but “American bias” is a tough one to argue. What part of the world do the top two fighters on my list live? And for whom do they fight?
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There’s been some discussion about what “pound for pound” means. The way I define it, it’s a combination of how a fighter performs in his or her division (showing how dominant they are) and overall skills. Difficult to argue against Liddell’s accomplishments and Franklin’s overall skill. But you can try.
Liddell’s a Bum, So Says CHR
I’m a regular listener to the Beatdown radio show and I know you know your stuff, but this list is just a bit too flawed for me to be quiet about it. Namely, Chuck Liddell (Pictures) at #5. How is this possible?
You mention the hyped Chuck vs. Randy III fight; did you actually buy into that hype? The fight itself showcased almost nothing of what MMA is really about. It was a joke. Chuck is a walking statue waiting to defend the takedown and throw a few punches. Chuck is not MMA. You can argue all day about who would beat who when it comes to Shogun and Chuck, but when it comes to their skills, there is no contest. You know this, yet you put Chuck at #5.
What makes this a bit laughable is that you also mention that Chuck is injured and will be out for several months. Is that really something unusual? The guy fights twice a year. He is always out for six months, injuries or not. Why do you mention his injury to imply that he is normally an active fighter? Something we both know he is not. In fact, considering him to be semi-retired at this point would not be a stretch. It gets even more ludicrous when you mention that "in February he knocked out couture," as if he is really active. Perhaps you should also mention that before he KO’d Couture again (which really means nothing) he had three fights in 1.5 years. While he won all of them, the extremely few fights make this quite unimpressive.
Something always overlooked when it comes to Chuck is how often he fights. It’s very easy to look at his win/loss ratio and conclude that he must be one of the best. Especially when you compare this to some top PRIDE fighters, who fight each other more often, and loses. The point here is that Chuck doesn’t fight, so he doesn’t lose. Furthermore, Chuck does not become a better fighter simply because the other top fighters lose to each other. So the question is, what is the real reason for putting Chuck at #5? Don’t tell me its because "he’s the champ." Every fighter in the UFC is always only one fight away from the title, except those who just lost of course. A title means nothing when all you need is one lucky shot and it’s yours.
Btw, Shogun is 12-2, not 12-3. — CHR
Liddell is a monster. His right hand is quickly becoming a thing of legend. And he’s beaten nothing but quality fighters. Guess I’m saying it doesn’t matter how often he fights as long as he keeps stopping quality competitors.
Skill is nice. Winning is nicer. And all Chuck does is win.
Oh, and thanks for a heads up on Shogun’s record. I messed that up.
Defining P4P Gross Style
While making that list you seem to have forgotten one thing: what p4p actually is. Skill relating to their weight... Ok so the top three isn’t bad, but putting Kid in at #12 makes the list lose all credibility. And no B.J. Penn (Pictures)? — Romal Sarwar
Sorry to burst your bubble, but weight isn’t a consideration. (My No. 1 guy is a heavyweight.) Know what is? Two things: 1) the way a fighter handles his peers and 2) the skill he displays in doing so.
Kid’s a great fighter and made the list on the strength of what he brings into competition. But looking at his opponents. Who stands out? A slowing Uno? The aged Royler Gracie (Pictures), who holds just one victory against a fighter in the black?
Defeating Genki Sudo (Pictures) helped get Kid on the list.
About Penn, he hasn’t defeated a Top 10 fighter in over two years. That’s gotta knock him off the list.
“Dozen” Missing the Baby Face Assassin
Where was Barnett? I gotta tell ya, I’m no Barnett nut-hugger. I didn’t like the guy when he was younger and I have a problem with some of his antics. But to not even give him an honorable mention when he has held two prestigious belts in MMA is kinda crazy. He beat a smaller but formidable Nakamura and did very well against a great striker in Mirko Filipovic (Pictures). He is one of the favorites to win the OWGP for sure when one weighs all the options. He can out-wrestle everyone, save Big Nog. With Big Nog if he can hold on when facing the ground game he can use GnP and he's no slouch with subs himself. If he continues to improve his cardio and striking, he can take the belt for sure. I say write up a column and give him a late mention. Thanx for your time — Shalabi
Hey, if he hadn’t gotten popped for steroids I still think Barnett would be UFC heavyweight champion (assuming he could have come to terms with Zuffa). Since leaving the UFC Josh hasn’t beaten a heavyweight of note. I always felt Barnett could be very good; he just needed to decide what he wanted. Glad to see him active these days. He’s not quite DD level, but with a few more wins and some time in the gym that could easily change.
