McCullough on MMA
William Cherry Jun 27, 2007
With his impenetrable jaw and endless punch volume, Wayne "The
Pocket Rocket" McCullough featured in some of the most title
thrilling boxing bouts in recent memory. After a career spent
mixing it up with the likes of Erik Morales and Naseem Hamed
without so much as a backward step or splash to the canvas,
McCullough knows a thing or two about what makes up the mettle of
fighting men.
Wayne still loves his boxing through and through, but along with his passion for the sport that made him famous, he shares an equal and endearing zeal for the booming sport of mixed martial arts.
With the UFC's recent expansion into Europe with shows in
Manchester, Belfast and later this year, London, along with
ever-increasing popularity of home-grown MMA promotions such as
Cage Rage, McCullough will soon play his own official part of the
UFC's development on these shores.
Boxing versus MMA? The former WBC bantamweight champion and Olympic silver medallist feels there is little point in choosing, when you can have both.
McCullough: Well, I have known (UFC president) Dana White and (UFC owner) Lorenzo Fertitta since ‘94-‘95, when Dana was heavily involved in boxing and Lorenzo was part of the (Nevada) Boxing Commission. I did go quite a while without seeing Dana, but we re-acquainted back in 2000 and it was then that he told me he was involved in the sport of MMA. I was glad to see that as he's a guy that works hard; he did when he was involved in boxing, and now he's doing the same for MMA not just in here in the States, but internationally now, too. I understand that the crowd in Belfast (for June 16's UFC 72 card) was the biggest ever in the Odyssey Arena's history, that's pretty amazing.
Wayne, what specifically will you being doing for the UFC, will you be required to do commentary?
No, not as such; Dana White asked me to get involved with respect of being a European face of things while the UFC expand into Europe. Like I said, he's known me since my boxing days -- before I was a champion and afterwards too -- and one of the things he told me was that being a world champion never changed me. But like I said to him, why should I change? In truth, his success in MMA hasn't changed him either, though he did use to have hair!
So, are you aware of what will be involved?
No, I was supposed to sit down with the UFC in Belfast (to talk through the details) but in the end, a fight I had in Dublin that weekend fell through, so, as it turned out, I stayed here in the U.S.
What happened?
Well I was supposed to fight in Dublin, and then attend the UFC show in Belfast later in the evening. About half a dozen guys turned fight down fights against me so they brought a Mexican guy who had a so-so record, so I wasn't overly happy about him as an opponent. But that's not the point. OK, I was supposed to be leaving on the Wednesday of the week beforehand but the promoter couldn't confirm the guy was leaving Mexico, so I thought I'm not going over if they can't guarantee me an opponent. Then we heard there was potential visa issues, and rumour had it that the guy didn't have a passport and had never fought outside Mexico, so that said, it was hardly the right mental preparation for a fight apparently just nine days off.
Did you get a chance to see the UFC show on TV? If so what were your thoughts?
I knew Rich Franklin (Pictures) (former UFC middleweight champion) was in a tough fight but he came through. I knew he would have a tough time with Yushin Okami (Pictures), who's one of those guys with immense natural strength, but he (Okami) gave away the first round, and despite a tough third round, Rich came through it in the end. It was good to see Forrest Griffin (Pictures) get back on track with a win, too. He's never in a bad fight and takes a few to land his own. He's in a war in almost all of his fights.
Griffin's style is likely one you can relate too, then?
Yes indeed, and Forrest also mentioned he was Irish, which I had no idea about beforehand.
What do did you make of the inclusion of local fighters Colin Robinson and Steve Lynch on the Belfast show?
Well, the funny thing about that is I had no idea there even were any Irish MMA fighters. That's why another thing that shows me the UFC is being promoted the right way: last week two Irish guys fought on an MMA event over in Belfast, and I was able to read about them over here in the U.S.
In your estimation, can boxing learn from the way the UFC promotes its shows?
Well, let me give you an example, in my last fight (a WBC super bantamweight title bout Oscar Larios), I was on the same card as Bernard Hopkins against Jermain Taylor on a show promoted by Oscar De La Hoya's Golden Boy Promotions right here in Vegas. Now here I was, the co-main event in a rematch of a world title fight, fighting in a city I have live in for 14 years, where I am well known, and there wasn't even a picture of me on the poster. Here in my garage I have a big welterweight boxer called Fransisco Santana working out as we speak. In his last fight in Vegas with Goosen Tutor Promotions they weren't going to put him on the card, I said to them, put him on the card. Of course nobody in boxing will be really interested until he is like 20-0. My wife Cheryl manages him and she contacted some of the top journalists in America to do a piece on Francisco, and it was no problem, one guy even did a whole Q & A with him, and all she had to do was ask, as a result he got more publicity than the main event. I guarantee Goosen wasn't going to do that for him. My point is that in the UFC, when a kid is starting off, he can be 4-0 and he's already get that publicity. Next up for Francisco is a spot on the Antonio Margarito-Paul Williams (WBO welterweight title bout) -- but more often than not, he would have to 20-0 before anyone paid any attention.
Why do you think that is?
The problem with boxing is that you need to win an Olympic medal. I won a silver medal so people knew who I was over here (in the US). If you don't have the medal you won't get TV good exposure. In MMA there is no Olympics and that's the difference. If I didn't win an Olympic medal I wouldn't have been a fighter, I would likely be a regular guy back home. Take Amir Khan, he's getting a big build-up because of his silver medal, without that he wouldn't be getting anywhere near the same level of exposure.
It seems amazing that you didn't make the poster for a double-header world title bill you were featured on.
Exactly, I had loads of friends turn up for the show who were there to just see me fight, they left after my bout with Larrios, so, if De La Hoya had done that bit more, realistically, he could have sold an extra 4,000 or so tickets for the show on a card that ultimately had disappointing box office turnout.
When did your interest in MMA begin?
Whenever I fought here (in Vegas) in 2002 a friend of mine, Jim Molloy, had mentioned the UFC to me a few times, so going back some three years ago I went to first UFC card in Vegas to see Tito Ortiz (Pictures).
How did you feel it compared to attending a boxing card?
I had a great time at the event. It was so different from boxing. They filled the arena from the first bout to the last, in boxing the arena is often half-empty before and after the main event, but the arena was full from the first fight to the last. This is what boxing doesn't do, a four-round or six-round fighter from the game just doesn't get the same level of exposure that guys get in the UFC.
Whether it's their first bout or last, each fighter gets a big build-up, there's an opportunity for them to do some talking on the big screens, so even if you know nothing about them beforehand, you get an opportunity to hear a bio of them and their thoughts on the fight, which gives the fans an opportunity to find out more about them, raising the interest about the fighter and the fight.
Comparatively with boxing undercards, do you feel there's a quality issue (when compared to MMA undercards)?
Well, on one of the recent UFC events, it was so well matched four underdogs from five fights came through and won their bouts. In MMA a guy can be 10-4 and still be a good fighter, even a top prospect. Wayne, the general consensus is that top quality matchmaking isn't happening often enough in boxing, what do you think?
Well take the recent Oscar De La Hoya versus Floyd Mayweather Jr. fight. That was a huge event, matching two tops fighters, but in reality, it was a disappointing fight, though having said that the recent Miguel Cotto versus Zab Judah was a throwback bout, like (Diego) Corrales and (Jose Luis) Castillo I. I said to Dana White that boxing and the UFC are different sports. Unfortunately, boxing is killing itself. In boxing we have guys wanting 15 million before they will step into the ring. That's not my style. I am a throwback. I came back from my couple of years off and was boxing for 40 grand a fight. I came back because I love to fight.
As someone who knows about both sports Wayne, you must be aware of the misconceptions that come from followers of both sports, in fact the boxing vs. MMA debate runs from the bars and guestbooks to the very front line of the boxing media, with the majority of barbs being shot from boxing, including negative comments on MMA from top level boxers like Mayweather Jr. Could you comment a little on that for me?
I think boxing is afraid of MMA. I don't get why so many people cannot make the separation between the two sports, and the two sports can't support each other; they are two different sports. I am one of the few boxers who actively supports and speaks out for MMA. So many boxers run MMA down, but MMA fighters don't disrespect boxing.
On the same subject, some of the less-educated uttering we hear and read about includes boxer A would easily beat MMA fighter B and vice versa -- if you had the opportunity to educate people in that regard, how would you describe a likely outcome between a top level boxer against a top level MMA fighter fighting each other at there own sports?
They are different sports; it is like comparing soccer and rugby. In MMA you can punch, kick, elbow and grapple. With MMA, the gloves are half the size of the gloves in boxing too. I'm an old street fighter, and I love those smaller gloves. It's a pity I wasn't bigger. I'm too small; if I were big enough I would learn jiu-jitsu and wrestling and take part. They (MMA and boxing) are two different sports and you can't compare the two things. I'm never going to say one is better than the other. They are both different, and the rules are different. If a boxer went in there to box a UFC guy, he likely knock him out with one punch, but what happens if an MMA gets hold of me? I am done!
It works both ways. Boxing is just going to be a step up for the UFC guys when it comes to striking only. Chuck Liddell (Pictures) is one of the best guys on his feet in MMA, you know, he trains to fight on his feet. If you turn that round I have no experience except for being a street fighter when I was younger, I'm not going to I know how tough they (MMA fighters) are. I understand what it takes to be a professional boxer, not an MMA fighter. I'm a football fan. I support Liverpool! I love boxing, and MMA is a separate sport. Why can't I support MMA and boxing as well?
What do you see as a good way forward to educating boxing people about the concept of MMA elements like jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai and wrestling?
Get and try it -- instead of talking about it, try it and then respect it as a different sport. Even with something like watching WWF wrestling, people are quick to condemn that, but would you try it? Those guys are hurting each other and many people don't understand that.
Wayne you are sat home on a Saturday night, and you have a choice of PPV options, you could watch say a De La Hoya vs. Mayweather or perhaps a Couture vs. Emelianenko -- what would you choice be?
Truth is, I'm not going to chose one over the other, when I look at the likes of Mayweather. He has so much skill he doesn't need to be involved in brutal fights, he's a smart business man and skilled boxer, so when I see him, I look at his skill; I don't turn him on for fight-of-the-year type wars. When you get fights with the likes of Liddell, Couture, Ortiz, those guys are trying to kill each other. Boxing hasn't treated me bad; some people in boxing have, but not boxing. I'm an old school boxing fan, I love fighters like Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran, Jake Lamotta. I am 37 -- I have boxed now for 30 years, and I will be looking to fight again in August, I still love the sport and love to fight, but I'm a 100 percent supporter of sports, not just boxing and not just MMA. I love both of them.
You can ask my wife, you give me that choice: I'll buy both of those pay-per-views, and spend the whole night flicking between the two (laughs)!
Wayne still loves his boxing through and through, but along with his passion for the sport that made him famous, he shares an equal and endearing zeal for the booming sport of mixed martial arts.
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Boxing versus MMA? The former WBC bantamweight champion and Olympic silver medallist feels there is little point in choosing, when you can have both.
Hi Wayne, tell us a little about your
connection with the UFC?
McCullough: Well, I have known (UFC president) Dana White and (UFC owner) Lorenzo Fertitta since ‘94-‘95, when Dana was heavily involved in boxing and Lorenzo was part of the (Nevada) Boxing Commission. I did go quite a while without seeing Dana, but we re-acquainted back in 2000 and it was then that he told me he was involved in the sport of MMA. I was glad to see that as he's a guy that works hard; he did when he was involved in boxing, and now he's doing the same for MMA not just in here in the States, but internationally now, too. I understand that the crowd in Belfast (for June 16's UFC 72 card) was the biggest ever in the Odyssey Arena's history, that's pretty amazing.
Wayne, what specifically will you being doing for the UFC, will you be required to do commentary?
No, not as such; Dana White asked me to get involved with respect of being a European face of things while the UFC expand into Europe. Like I said, he's known me since my boxing days -- before I was a champion and afterwards too -- and one of the things he told me was that being a world champion never changed me. But like I said to him, why should I change? In truth, his success in MMA hasn't changed him either, though he did use to have hair!
So, are you aware of what will be involved?
No, I was supposed to sit down with the UFC in Belfast (to talk through the details) but in the end, a fight I had in Dublin that weekend fell through, so, as it turned out, I stayed here in the U.S.
What happened?
Well I was supposed to fight in Dublin, and then attend the UFC show in Belfast later in the evening. About half a dozen guys turned fight down fights against me so they brought a Mexican guy who had a so-so record, so I wasn't overly happy about him as an opponent. But that's not the point. OK, I was supposed to be leaving on the Wednesday of the week beforehand but the promoter couldn't confirm the guy was leaving Mexico, so I thought I'm not going over if they can't guarantee me an opponent. Then we heard there was potential visa issues, and rumour had it that the guy didn't have a passport and had never fought outside Mexico, so that said, it was hardly the right mental preparation for a fight apparently just nine days off.
Did you get a chance to see the UFC show on TV? If so what were your thoughts?
I knew Rich Franklin (Pictures) (former UFC middleweight champion) was in a tough fight but he came through. I knew he would have a tough time with Yushin Okami (Pictures), who's one of those guys with immense natural strength, but he (Okami) gave away the first round, and despite a tough third round, Rich came through it in the end. It was good to see Forrest Griffin (Pictures) get back on track with a win, too. He's never in a bad fight and takes a few to land his own. He's in a war in almost all of his fights.
Griffin's style is likely one you can relate too, then?
Yes indeed, and Forrest also mentioned he was Irish, which I had no idea about beforehand.
What do did you make of the inclusion of local fighters Colin Robinson and Steve Lynch on the Belfast show?
Well, the funny thing about that is I had no idea there even were any Irish MMA fighters. That's why another thing that shows me the UFC is being promoted the right way: last week two Irish guys fought on an MMA event over in Belfast, and I was able to read about them over here in the U.S.
In your estimation, can boxing learn from the way the UFC promotes its shows?
Well, let me give you an example, in my last fight (a WBC super bantamweight title bout Oscar Larios), I was on the same card as Bernard Hopkins against Jermain Taylor on a show promoted by Oscar De La Hoya's Golden Boy Promotions right here in Vegas. Now here I was, the co-main event in a rematch of a world title fight, fighting in a city I have live in for 14 years, where I am well known, and there wasn't even a picture of me on the poster. Here in my garage I have a big welterweight boxer called Fransisco Santana working out as we speak. In his last fight in Vegas with Goosen Tutor Promotions they weren't going to put him on the card, I said to them, put him on the card. Of course nobody in boxing will be really interested until he is like 20-0. My wife Cheryl manages him and she contacted some of the top journalists in America to do a piece on Francisco, and it was no problem, one guy even did a whole Q & A with him, and all she had to do was ask, as a result he got more publicity than the main event. I guarantee Goosen wasn't going to do that for him. My point is that in the UFC, when a kid is starting off, he can be 4-0 and he's already get that publicity. Next up for Francisco is a spot on the Antonio Margarito-Paul Williams (WBO welterweight title bout) -- but more often than not, he would have to 20-0 before anyone paid any attention.
Why do you think that is?
The problem with boxing is that you need to win an Olympic medal. I won a silver medal so people knew who I was over here (in the US). If you don't have the medal you won't get TV good exposure. In MMA there is no Olympics and that's the difference. If I didn't win an Olympic medal I wouldn't have been a fighter, I would likely be a regular guy back home. Take Amir Khan, he's getting a big build-up because of his silver medal, without that he wouldn't be getting anywhere near the same level of exposure.
It seems amazing that you didn't make the poster for a double-header world title bill you were featured on.
Exactly, I had loads of friends turn up for the show who were there to just see me fight, they left after my bout with Larrios, so, if De La Hoya had done that bit more, realistically, he could have sold an extra 4,000 or so tickets for the show on a card that ultimately had disappointing box office turnout.
When did your interest in MMA begin?
Whenever I fought here (in Vegas) in 2002 a friend of mine, Jim Molloy, had mentioned the UFC to me a few times, so going back some three years ago I went to first UFC card in Vegas to see Tito Ortiz (Pictures).
How did you feel it compared to attending a boxing card?
I had a great time at the event. It was so different from boxing. They filled the arena from the first bout to the last, in boxing the arena is often half-empty before and after the main event, but the arena was full from the first fight to the last. This is what boxing doesn't do, a four-round or six-round fighter from the game just doesn't get the same level of exposure that guys get in the UFC.
Whether it's their first bout or last, each fighter gets a big build-up, there's an opportunity for them to do some talking on the big screens, so even if you know nothing about them beforehand, you get an opportunity to hear a bio of them and their thoughts on the fight, which gives the fans an opportunity to find out more about them, raising the interest about the fighter and the fight.
Comparatively with boxing undercards, do you feel there's a quality issue (when compared to MMA undercards)?
Well, on one of the recent UFC events, it was so well matched four underdogs from five fights came through and won their bouts. In MMA a guy can be 10-4 and still be a good fighter, even a top prospect. Wayne, the general consensus is that top quality matchmaking isn't happening often enough in boxing, what do you think?
Well take the recent Oscar De La Hoya versus Floyd Mayweather Jr. fight. That was a huge event, matching two tops fighters, but in reality, it was a disappointing fight, though having said that the recent Miguel Cotto versus Zab Judah was a throwback bout, like (Diego) Corrales and (Jose Luis) Castillo I. I said to Dana White that boxing and the UFC are different sports. Unfortunately, boxing is killing itself. In boxing we have guys wanting 15 million before they will step into the ring. That's not my style. I am a throwback. I came back from my couple of years off and was boxing for 40 grand a fight. I came back because I love to fight.
As someone who knows about both sports Wayne, you must be aware of the misconceptions that come from followers of both sports, in fact the boxing vs. MMA debate runs from the bars and guestbooks to the very front line of the boxing media, with the majority of barbs being shot from boxing, including negative comments on MMA from top level boxers like Mayweather Jr. Could you comment a little on that for me?
I think boxing is afraid of MMA. I don't get why so many people cannot make the separation between the two sports, and the two sports can't support each other; they are two different sports. I am one of the few boxers who actively supports and speaks out for MMA. So many boxers run MMA down, but MMA fighters don't disrespect boxing.
On the same subject, some of the less-educated uttering we hear and read about includes boxer A would easily beat MMA fighter B and vice versa -- if you had the opportunity to educate people in that regard, how would you describe a likely outcome between a top level boxer against a top level MMA fighter fighting each other at there own sports?
They are different sports; it is like comparing soccer and rugby. In MMA you can punch, kick, elbow and grapple. With MMA, the gloves are half the size of the gloves in boxing too. I'm an old street fighter, and I love those smaller gloves. It's a pity I wasn't bigger. I'm too small; if I were big enough I would learn jiu-jitsu and wrestling and take part. They (MMA and boxing) are two different sports and you can't compare the two things. I'm never going to say one is better than the other. They are both different, and the rules are different. If a boxer went in there to box a UFC guy, he likely knock him out with one punch, but what happens if an MMA gets hold of me? I am done!
It works both ways. Boxing is just going to be a step up for the UFC guys when it comes to striking only. Chuck Liddell (Pictures) is one of the best guys on his feet in MMA, you know, he trains to fight on his feet. If you turn that round I have no experience except for being a street fighter when I was younger, I'm not going to I know how tough they (MMA fighters) are. I understand what it takes to be a professional boxer, not an MMA fighter. I'm a football fan. I support Liverpool! I love boxing, and MMA is a separate sport. Why can't I support MMA and boxing as well?
What do you see as a good way forward to educating boxing people about the concept of MMA elements like jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai and wrestling?
Get and try it -- instead of talking about it, try it and then respect it as a different sport. Even with something like watching WWF wrestling, people are quick to condemn that, but would you try it? Those guys are hurting each other and many people don't understand that.
Wayne you are sat home on a Saturday night, and you have a choice of PPV options, you could watch say a De La Hoya vs. Mayweather or perhaps a Couture vs. Emelianenko -- what would you choice be?
Truth is, I'm not going to chose one over the other, when I look at the likes of Mayweather. He has so much skill he doesn't need to be involved in brutal fights, he's a smart business man and skilled boxer, so when I see him, I look at his skill; I don't turn him on for fight-of-the-year type wars. When you get fights with the likes of Liddell, Couture, Ortiz, those guys are trying to kill each other. Boxing hasn't treated me bad; some people in boxing have, but not boxing. I'm an old school boxing fan, I love fighters like Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran, Jake Lamotta. I am 37 -- I have boxed now for 30 years, and I will be looking to fight again in August, I still love the sport and love to fight, but I'm a 100 percent supporter of sports, not just boxing and not just MMA. I love both of them.
You can ask my wife, you give me that choice: I'll buy both of those pay-per-views, and spend the whole night flicking between the two (laughs)!
